Welcome to Trust Your Sacred Feminine Flow. 

Each month on the podcast, I share intimate conversations with (r)evolutionary women about their journey to embody their sovereignty and change the world.

Lisa Copeland is a leading internationally recognized Love Coach and Dating Expert for women over 50. She’s the Amazon Best-Selling Author of The Winning Dating Formula For Women Over 50. She has been seen in the Huffington Post and has appeared on ABC and Fox. She inspires and teaches women how to feel confident, empowered and joyful dating after 50.

Lisa joins us to share her wisdom and insights into men, dating and creating fulfilling partnerships over 50. 

During this episode we discussed: 

  • How to find the joy in dating after 50. 
  • Understanding Men over 50
  • The Quality Man Template
  • Emotional Guidance System
  • The Hero Response in Men
  • How to remain empowered and partner with men’s natural strengths.


To access Lisa’s Free Gifts: The 5 Little Known Secrets For Finding A Quality Man. https://www.findaqualityman.com/5secrets

 A Woman’s Guide to Understanding Men https://www.findaqualityman.com/understandingmen

 Listen to Men, Dating and Relationship after 50 by clicking the play button on the audio player below.

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Read the Full Transcript here.


Welcome beloved listener, I am so glad you can join us today. I have a special guest and a special opportunity for you today. I have Lisa Copeland joining me and Lisa is a leading internationally recognized Love Coach and Dating expert for women over 50. So whether you’re over 50 or not, stay tuned. And whether you have a partner or not stay tuned in because we are going to be diving into understanding men. So first I want to welcome you, Lisa, and then I will go into more about who you are and what you bring.


Lisa: Oh thank you, Joni. It’s so nice to be here with you.


 Such an honor and such a joy. I know we are going to have fun because just leading up to this, we have been laughing. We have been laughing all over the place, so we’re going to get some good, good juicy information and conversation, and we’re going to have some fun. 

So as I said, let me share a little bit more about Lisa and the wonder that she is and all that she brings. She is an Amazon bestselling author of The Winning Dating Formula for Women Over 50. And she’s been seen in the Huffington post and has appeared on ABC and Fox. And she inspires and teaches women how to feel confident, empowered, and joyful dating after 50. That is a big, that is a big ask. I would say. 


Many people dread dating. They see it as a chore and it can really be so much fun. 

Joni: Yeah. Well it’s so funny because it’s, it’s a little unusual, but I

Was saying to you before we started that I’m in this really shy mode today, which is, it’s not always the case for me. And I don’t know if it’s because of the subject matter or if I’m channeling what it is that when women enter the dating pool after feel, I don’t know, but do the women, you work with encounter some of, some of that, like how do I even get started with this? 


Oh yes. I hear that all the time. Because truthfully, when we were younger, we didn’t have to date. It’s kind of true. We sort of fell into relationships because we hung out. We met people and we really began hanging out. And so we weren’t dating lots of men. And we weren’t trying to make decisions before a cup of coffee was finished whether they’re the One. We didn’t even think of that back then, we just hung out and had a good time.

And it could go somewhere. So what I hear from women so often is either they haven’t dated since they were really young or they didn’t really date and, and they just don’t know how to start. And it feels daunting to them. 

Joni: Yes. And maybe a little awkward or just … 

Lisa: Oh yeah. 

Joni: Yeah. 

Lisa: It is awkward.

Joni: Or insecure. I just, I don’t even need to be dating. I’m married. But I can feel it.


And I think there’s some shame too. Like all my friends are married and what happened to me? What did I do wrong? And you didn’t do anything wrong. It’s like a lot of people that are married, hopefully yours is a blessed, happy marriage. Many marriages are not, and people are staying because they’re afraid to be alone. So the gift when you do get divorced or when you’re widowed is one, you get a chance to rediscover yourself again.

And so many people when they’re in marriages, not you, Joni, cause you’re growing all the time. But so many people don’t grow – they sort of stay stagnant. And when you’re on your own, you, you almost, it’s like a big push it’s time to grow now. And it takes us out of our comfort zone and we love being in our comfort zone. That feels good to us, but we can get kind of bored. So it’s really scary for women when they are coming out with bodies that are older, not knowing how to date and then they put it into the mindset of, Oh, this is like a job versus, Oh, this is fun. And I’m learning about myself and about what I want at this time in my life. 


Well, that was the thing I so appreciate about your approach to this issue, really support women in honoring themselves kind of coming from a foundation of what I would use the word sovereignty or just honoring who they are, what matters to them as opposed to kind of putting themselves out there in order to please.


Yes. That’s a big issue. So what often happens when we’re not honoring ourselves and we honor another person we end up getting hurt. So an example of that is I was after my first marriage, which was 24 years and he was the father of my children, but I took about a year to heal. You know, that’s a long time to be in a marriage. I realized, during that time when I came out of my marriage, I was really still a couple in my thinking. I remember the first date I went on, a guy from a sports team came into a restaurant I was at. And I remember thinking, Oh my, he would have liked that meaning my ex. He would have liked that. And so you kind of forget about yourself and we often give ourselves up as women and relationships to please a man.

And the problem is, is we become them and they married you in the first place because of who you were at the time, your personality and everything. And so when we give ourselves up, we think we’re doing it for the best, the best good of the relationship, but we’re hurting ourselves. And I think that was one of the biggest lessons I learned. And I see it with my clients too, was to learn how to truly honor ourselves. Sometimes we have to make tough decisions and we have to end relationships because they’re not honoring us anymore. So I was saying though, the two and a half year relationship I was in, I knew I was not with the right person. I knew we were a major mismatch, but one, he looked at me like I was a movie star or something, and I hadn’t had that.

And that was like, unbelievable. And that is, we were going along and we were breaking up like every three months and I knew it was wrong. I knew it wasn’t the right person for me, but I was afraid I would hurt his feelings. So I ended up really hurting myself. Although I learned so much in this relationship, but I hurt myself because I wasn’t honoring me and what my needs were. I was honoring his needs because I didn’t want to hurt him. In the end I did anyway, because it did come to a point, I realized I had to honor myself and it’s really important to, that’s why I help women feel empowered again. 


Yes, yes. Yes. So in a way you had to step into your leadership in the relationship because you could see the writing on the wall. It sounds like in a way that he could, not that it was not a good fit.


Right. But it wasn’t the leadership of dealing with men, which I know we’re going to talk about. It was leadership really of honoring self. 


Yes, yes, yes. Which if we don’t have that, we really don’t have anything in my opinion, I mean, if we’re, if we’re not coming from a place in our lives of honoring ourselves, it’s hard to really have joy, satisfaction, fulfillment in our lives. 


Right. And one of the things we do in dating is we let men pick us. And that came from being a good girl when you were younger being flattered and people pleasing, and all that. So when I work with clients, we create … 

Joni Is it time for the dog to bark?


Amazon must be at my door. 

Yeah. So with my clients we create what’s called a Quality Man Template. And what this is is for the first time women, many of them are simply sitting down and getting clear on what’s going to make them happy today. Because most of the time we’re dating, like we did in our twenties and our teens. We’re looking for that hot guy. And you know that we have instant chemistry and attraction too. And chemistry and attraction are wonderful, but we’re all getting older and sexual dysfunction is rampant in this age group. And you need more. You need more than just chemistry. You need to know what is it that I really want to do with my partner? How do I want to share my life? How do I want the support? How do I want the fun? How do I want? And you get to pick again. And you’re not making babies this time so you don’t need the strongest guy in the world. You need someone, you know, the strongest, hottest guy. That’s how we pick in our twenties, DNA coding for babies. Yay. It’s about the having fun. It’s about companionship. It’s about having someone that has your back. The other interesting thing we do is I have women look at the patterns of men they’ve been attracted to over the years because we don’t recognize we’re dating the same guy in different clothes.

And I call this a Pattern Chart as part of that Quality Man Template. And they’re the reason women have such a hard time they’re looking for that old type over and over again. It’s back to the comfort zone. It feels really good because you’ve been around it your whole life. Chances are it is a parent you had issues with. We do that in relationships. Does that make sense? 


Yes, yes. From a psychotherapy standpoint, it goes to what’s your attachment style and how we attach and yes, all those pieces of, of trying to win in the situation, you couldn’t win in the first place. 


Right. So my sister said to me, right at the pretty close to the beginning of that 24 year marriage, she said, you know, you’re married mom. I said, What?! No. Yes, I did.

And I did it in that two and a half year relationship. And I did it in a two year marriage after that. And that is when I started to realize – this is what I created the beginning of that Quality Man Template and that pattern chart where I really dove down and started looking at who the heck am I attracted to all the time? And it always starts from within you cause you’re healing yourself. 


Right. Right, right. Right. Well, I love that. And I know you have another equally powerful tool you use that I heard you mentioned on a recent interview, something about feelings or do you know what I’m referring to? 

Lisa: An Emotional Guidance System?

Joni Yes, yes, yes. 


That is part of the Quality Man Template. Okay. So, um, I help women really dive down into how they want to feel around the man. So it’s important because when we have this tendency to let men pick us, or when we have this tendency to go by instant attraction. And by the way, for women chemistry and attraction can grow, it doesn’t have to be instant

It can grow. And the guy that wasn’t so cute can suddenly be the cutest guy in the world. Once you’ve gotten to really know him. So, if you’re picking by either of those two things, chemistry and attraction, or you’re picking by letting a man choose you, the Emotional Guidance System is so important because we have a tendency to forget about how we’re feeling in our relationship. We make excuses when we’re not feeling good and when someone’s not treating us right. So what I did was I came up with this Emotional Guidance System where you really get clear. Now, when I do it with my group clients, we do it in meditation. And I have them meet the light of that person. I ask them how are you feeling? What does that, what do you feel when he wraps his arms around you?

And what do you feel when you’re communicating? So can I share how that saved me one time?

Joni: Yes, please, please. 


So I went out with this guy who it turns out had Buku dollars and I thought… And we can have what’s called perceived high value qualities where we really want one quality. And we fit a square peg in the round hole to make it work. It can be money. It can be looks, it can be, uh, he has to be fit or even spiritual. I went out with a guy that was spiritual and he was not a good person.

Because he was spiritual I used that as the quality to say Yes he’s got everything that I ever wanted, but he did not. But anyways, so I went out with this guy that had Buku dollars and he took me to this very expensive restaurant and we had, we sat and we had a glass of wine and then we said, let’s do dinner. I said, okay. And he said, do you want, you know what, let’s get this shrimp and crab and this huge tower that was really expensive, expensive seafood. And then we ordered steaks and we’re ordering all the stuff and I’m going, Oh wow, this is great. This is a wonderful lifestyle. And we went out on a second date and it was okay. And then we go, he comes to my house this would be the third time I saw him because that restaurant was really close to my house where I used to live.

He comes in and he starts with me about sex. I said to him, I haven’t known you long enough. I just need to know you better. And he said, Oh, but you don’t trust me. And I go, it’s not that I don’t trust you. I feel, I don’t know you. And anyway he ends up leaving in a huff. And, but he did ask me out again to another expensive restaurant and this whole sex talk starts again. And I’m feeling like this is the fourth date, he is not honoring me and I’m not feeling good. 

So I went home and I read my Emotional Guidance System that started with the man in my life makes me feel loved, adored and cherished. I wasn’t feeling any of that. If I hadn’t had that tool it would have been really easy for me to swipe under the rug or throw under the rug the fact that he was not honoring me to go with that expensive lifestyle, which was that perceived high value quality. 

So you always want to tap into how am I feeling around this man? Because you can get taken away, blown away by other things he has. And then you can still feel like crap. And you know, you don’t need, you need someone that makes you feel good. You need to feel good inside first, but you need someone that reflects how good you feel inside. 


Right. And you – we all deserve that. And it’s interesting as I’m listening to you, I’m thinking that this also applies in our female friendships, for example for those of us that might be in a committed partnership or marriage, but maybe it’s female friends that we want or need that these tools you’re describing, don’t have to be limited just to a dating relationship, but they could be to other forms of relationship, which seems very powerful to me. 


They could because we outgrow relationships sometimes and it’s painful and we don’t feel good, but we stay because we’ve had the friendship so long. So yeah, I guess you could come up with a guidance system for how you want to feel around friends. Yeah. That’s brilliant. Joni. Yeah. Good job.

Joni: That’s my free tip of the day. You can take that and run with it.

Lisa: I like it. 


Yes. It really is ultimately about honoring self in relationship. And for so many of us, we have deep wounding both with men or women, or as you said we ended up marrying or partnering with our mother.

Lisa: Or our father. I’ve had many … 


Yeah. So speaking of that, I would love to just dive into like, what are the secrets that you know about men?


Do you have the day to talk? Maybe the next week?!

Well, let’s start with how women perceive men. Is that a good place to start? 

Joni: Perfect. Yes, that’s perfect. 


So we perceive men as women inside, but just in male bodies. And actually a friend and I many, many years ago we went on a trip together. And this is when I was single and we were sitting by the pool and sitting with our, I think we had Cosmopolitans because  Sex in the City was real big then. And we were just so cool with our little Cosmos. And we’re talking about men. That was the insight that came to us was, you know what, maybe we’re looking for women in men’s bodies. And it’s true. We think that men think like us and they so don’t and this goes both ways, by the way. Men think that women think like them. And we don’t either. 

So that’s a really good place to start. They don’t speak the language we speak and hear. Because they come from a different place and the place women come from is community. 

Joni: Yeah. 


So if I said to Joni, could you please help me move this table? What would you say to me? 

Joni: Sure. 


Of course you would, because women come from what’s best for the community. And that comes from the caveman days where women were the gatherers and men were the hunters. Now man, come from what I call being the hero. It really is wired into a man to make your life better, to fix. And a great example of that is how many times have you tried to tell your husband his story and he’s tried to fix something? 

Joni: Yes. Sometimes even before I tell him this story, but yes.


Well, instead of thinking, Oh my God, just let me talk. See that as a gift, because that is a male, a male’s strength is to make you feel safe and protected to the best of their ability. And it’s actually a gift. 


Mmm It is you’re right. It is a gift. And it’s funny because I have a dear friend who was single and tells me that all the time. She’s like, I wish I had a Bill in my world. 


Well the other thing is though, is everyone’s husband looks better because they don’t live with ’em. 

Joni: Right. 

Lisa: But, there is a way to tell that story without having a guy fix it. Do you want to hear it? 

Joni: Yes, yes. 


So when men are listening to you talk, they are listening to what can I fix? That is literally where their mind is. And when you go on a tangent and you start talking about Susie’s best friend’s father dating somebody or whatever they get lost because their focus is to fix for you. Remember they want to keep you safe, protected, and provided for to the best of their ability. 

So you can help them relax and just say to them, Oh, could you do me a favor, I just need to share this story. Nothing needs to be fixed. I just need about five minutes, put a timer on it. Because if you go real long, the eyes start glazing over. But a guy can hear you for five minutes. You could just say, could you do me a favor? I just need five minutes of your time when you have a sec, I just need to share this story. And one of the things is when you do that is, number one, it tells a man, you’re leading him for what you need without demanding. And he wants to do that for you. He really does. And contain it to five minutes. Don’t go on. And if you really need to share it, share it with a girlfriend. Because she can process with you. And that’s what we look for is that processing. We just want to feel it and twirl it around. Whereas men are going, fix. Get to the point, fix, get to the point, fix. 


Yes. Well it strikes me. It really is when you provide the structure for them or the container and they know what they’re entering into, that they can relax. That’s what I’m hearing. 

Lisa: Right.

Joni: They can relax down into that. Yeah.


Yeah. So another tip about men. Men, we actually criticize men all the time. And a lot of that comes from the fact that we have our own way of doing things. And of course our way is the betterr way, right?

Joni: Yes. Like loading the dishwasher. Yeah.


Oh yeah. But it’s not. And from a different way. And what we’re really doing when we criticize a man is number one, we’re training them to stop doing for us because they figure, I can just never do it right. Why even try anymore? And number two, we’re just not letting them do their job. And what we’re saying is we don’t trust you to do it right. And then again, they stop doing for you. So an example of that, that happened in my life also … like one of the reasons I understand all this, so well is I’ve I feel like I’ve lived it all.  I’ve gone through the tears, the frustration, the everything, and the reason I can help women so well, is I’ve been there, I empathize, I know. Nobody taught us these things about men. 

Joni: No. 

Lisa: So the greatest thing you can do is to try and not pick everything as a battle.

So try and not unload that dishwasher and reload. that dishwasher right in front of his face where he’ll think, well, why did I even bother? Just let the dishes go and let them clean as best as they can. You have to pick your battles because otherwise it’s like a puppy, you know, you’re you’re when you go. No, no, no, no, no enough times, you know, the puppy just sits with its head down and, and that’s how a man feels and they’ll stop trying. And another thing about men is they need to be appreciated if a man does do something for you, even if he does it the wrong way, he’s trying, he just doesn’t have our book of how to do it. And so he’s trying, and you really do want to appreciate that. Appreciate when he tries even if it’s not to your standard because he really is trying. 

And a great way to ask men for their help. I call it the four magic words and the five magic words. So let’s go back to that community thing where I said to you, could you please help me move this table? And you said, of course, yes. Cause we’re community oriented. And you said, please, you know that’s what we’re taught to say, please, and thank you. We were good. Good girls when we said that. Well a man doesn’t hear, he hears that line like an order. Whereas we hear it as, Oh, let’s cooperate and we’ll all work together. He hears it like you’re ordering him because who is to say, honey, get your homework off the table, honey, move your shoes.

Joni: Mom.


That’s right. Mom was doing it from a community – let’s make the house nice for the community. 

Joni: Yes. 


So my first husband used to say, you’re always ordering me. And I’m thinking but I say, please. I would say, what am I doing? And he could not define it. It wasn’t until much later when two men told me, I didn’t know how to let men be men. I tell you I’ve done it all. This is why I can help other women.

Joni: You’ve done the research for us. Thank you so much. 


That’s right. I’ve lived it. And it wasn’t until later I found out that those words, can you please help me move this table sounded like an order to him. He couldn’t put it into words. It was his mother. I later learned that’s who it was. So the way to get a man to step up is to trigger the hero response in them.

So you say, honey, I need your help. Or you say, honey, could you do me a favor? Because when you’re coming from that place, first of all, you’re giving them something to do for you. And that’s why it’s important not to criticize because when you give them something to do, they’re going to go off and do it. And they really, really do want to make you happy. And we are the Killjoys because we’re like, how could you do it this way? What do you mean you went to the grocery store and you got the Hunts Ketchup versus the Heinz Ketchup? And they’re there, Oh, well I tried my best. But if you use those kinds of words, I need your help. Or could you do me a favor? It triggers the hero response of vulnerability in you. And they’re like, yes, yes, yes I can fix something for her. You’re actually making them happy as long as you appreciate it and not criticize it. 


Yes. Which from my standpoint, just looking at that kind of the partnership model of bringing the masculine and the feminine together, our capacity to yield or be receptive, it all makes perfect sense. It is that as you said, that vulnerability cue or response, or what have you to, to allow them to, to step in and do and provide for us. So interesting. 


And while you’re on the male/female roles there, which is kind of what I would call the alpha/ beta males? Well, not, I’m going to take out beta the alpha role. As women, especially when we’ve been single. And this is how I came into those two relationships, by the way, where men said, you don’t know how to let a man be a man.

But my first husband, I asked him that question, if that was true. But because we grew together through 24 years, we established roles. So it was totally different. But coming into relationships today where we’ve all shifted and changed, we’ve had to come in when we’ve been single we’re coming from our alpha power because we have had to take care of ourselves. And so we know how to do things. We’re directing people in significant jobs now we’re taking care of kids, we’re really smart. 

Joni: Yeah. 


But there has been a price to pay for that because we’ve lost the cooperation of men, because we start bossing them around. Or we come in from that I am woman, let me roar. And so I was doing that in those two relationships, I was saying, I am so much stronger than you, Nanananana. You know?

And so they were always feeling less than because I was so much stronger. I chose the wrong men to begin with. But I also didn’t know how to let go of having to be in control and not getting their cooperation. So when you use those words, I need your help. And when you use those words, could you do me a favor, what you’re actually doing is getting cooperation from a man. You’re not bossing him around. Or telling him what to do, how to do it. Where to do it, when to do it. So when we come from our alpha role, there’s a price to be paid is we give up our hearts because we’re protecting our hearts. And as women, our greatest strength is our heart. It is the feelings that we feel. Men have way more feelings than we do. But what were they told as kids when they cried? 

Joni: Stop crying, boys don’t cry.


That’s right. So they can’t identify their feelings. They just stuffed them. So as we look to men to keep us safe, protected, and provided for, to the best of their ability, men look to women to be able to be soft and to be able to be safe in those feelings because men can’t do that with other men. It’s actually a much more powerful place to be than when you’re telling men how to do things, where to do it and to control because you are actually getting some of that burden off your shoulders. And I work with so many alpha females and they’ll say to me, I’m so tired of doing it all alone and doing everything. And unless you can, if you’re going to order men around, you’re still going to be doing it alone.

Joni: Good point, good point.


Whereas if you trigger that hero response, you’re gonna have their cooperation. And ultimately that’s what you want. You don’t need another child to boss around. 


No, most women are looking for partnership. They’re looking for someone that they can both share the joys with, but also the burdens and challenges. 


But the thing is you each bring your strengths to the table. And for men, it is the logical way they think we, we can do it too, but our strength is our heart. And some men can do heart. Some need some help with heart. And that’s why it’s really important to come from your heart. And women say, Oh, you’re just making me a doormat. No, not at all. You’re actually stronger when you come from your heart than you are, when you come from your head. Not that you don’t use your head, you do, but it’s your heart that’s going to have a man want to step up and be there for you. 


Hmm. I love that. So as we’re moving towards the end of our time, I would love to hear you just talk about your book, The Winning Dating Formula for Women Over 50. And I know you have a couple of free gifts that are options. 


I do. Yes. So I do have a book on Amazon called The Winning Dating Formula for Women Over 50. And it’s going to give you many of the strategies I use with clients. Of course, when I work with clients, we dive much deeper, but it gives you that beginning taste. And that is on Amazon. And I have women tell me they keep it in their nightstand and refer back to it. 

And then I have two gifts. One is The Guide to Understanding Men. And it’s going to give you some ideas about how to really come into your true feminine power, because that’s your real power and get the cooperation of men. And that is totally free. I think Joni, you are going to have the links for these two free gifts. 

Joni: Yes, In the show notes. 


And the other one is the Five Little Known Secrets for Finding a Quality Man. And this is just, this is a really great little ebook. Those are both ebooks, The Guide to Understanding Men and The Five Little Known Secrets for Finding a Quality Man. So it’s going to give you some ideas. Like if you’re stuck, you’ve been dating awhile, it’s going to give you some ideas of how to recharge your dating life. And if you’re just starting, it’s going to give you some ideas for how to start. And then of course, if you want even more information and like, if you really want to get started and dive deeper, you can always reach out to me at lisa@findaqualityman.com. 

And I offer a wonderful free session where we look at what’s been going on, we look at what’s working, what’s not working, and if I can help you, I’ll show you how. And you’ll come out of the call with great value knowing exactly what you need to do to find the right man. And I just did one right before we got on this call and this woman said to me, Oh my gosh, you care so much. She said, thank you for spending the time with me. And then she was ready to jump. She decided I really want to go further. So, but you don’t have to. It’s really to help you see where you are and the clarity for your love life. Cause we need a plan. Like in everything in life, you actually feel the best when you have a plan. When you think guys are going to fall on your doorstop or you’ll know him, when you see ’em you’ll know him. When you see them, you’ll know you have chemistry, and guys falling on your doorstep. They just really don’t.

Joni: It’s not raining men. Like the song said, it’s not.


Yeah. I just heard that song the other day, Raining Men. So anyway, a plan is what helps you really find the right guy.  So I love doing this. I’ve been there. I’ve done it all. I mean, I even went to Australia to meet a guy once. I’ve done every mistake in the book and it’s what led me here. So this is why, when you, if you’re feeling like you’re making mistakes in dating, they’re all gifts for you to keep moving forward and to help you identify better what you want. And parts of you that may need healing or parts of you that are amazing you haven’t recognized. There’s no mistakes. They’re all gifts


Yes. And I love that you really provide structure and strategy and focus and just taking the mystery out of this process.


Yeah. And mindset too. Our mindsets make a huge difference in what we want. It’s intention. And with all my clients, we really set an intention because we have things that block us. But that’s probably for another podcast. What blocks us from finding love?


Yes, yes, yes. I think you’re right there. And, actually I would love to read the memoir. Like someday, you’re going to have to write the memoir of all the research that you’ve done. Cause it sounds like you really have done the research for us.

Lisa: I’ve lived it. 

Joni: You have.


A lot of it’s in my book, the Winning Dating Formula, I talk about going to Australia.


Awesome. So you don’t even have to be needing to date to buy the book. It sounds like your fascinating story is in there.

Lisa: Oh, that is in there. Yeah. It was all a gift. All a gift.

Joni: Wonderful.


It was. It was. At the time it didn’t feel like it. And like I said, for another podcast that gets into shame we bring to dating and all these mindsets. Things we’ve done in the past. And this is a big thing I work with with women is overcoming those things. The shame and the guilt cause it all shows up again otherwise.


Yeah. So you are really doing deep transformational work with women. And they may not be showing up saying, Oh yes, that’s what I want. But it sounds like that’s really what’s occurring through the process of coming home to themselves and learning how to open to their hearts again. 

Lisa: Yes. 

Joni: It’s beautiful. So thank you so much, Lisa.


Oh, thank you. It was fun. 


Yes. It was fun. And I know our dear listeners have enjoyed it as well. So thank you dear listener for being with us. And I want to remind you as always to trust what your heart knows.

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