Welcome to Trust Your Sacred Feminine Flow.
Each month on the podcast, I share intimate conversations with (r)evolutionary women about their journey to embody their sovereignty and change the world.
Dr. Elsbeth Meuth Ed.D. with her longtime partner, Freddy are at the forefront of articulating and teaching a new paradigm for creating a conscious relationship. She has assisted thousands of women to create lasting intimacy and fulfillment in their lives and relationships.
In our conversation we discussed:
- Intimate partnership as a doorway to awakening
- The different paths of connection for men and women
- Human Relationship Mastery
- Sexual Healing
Dr. Elsbeth Meuth, EdD. is featured on Showtime’s documentary series Sexual Healing and the Emmy Award-winning NBC show Starting Over, best-selling author of Sexual Enlightenment endorsed by world-renowned Spiritual Pioneer Dr. Michael Beckwith, and the co-founder of TantraNova Institute in Chicago.
She has coached billionaires, innovators and power couples all over the world, shared their intimacy secrets at a global YPO (Young Presidents Organization) conference in the city of love, Paris, and got nominated as Changemaker at the White House sponsored 2016 United State of Women Summit in Washington, D.C.
Website: https://www.tantranova.com/
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Read the Full Transcript Here:
Joni
Welcome dear listener. It’s so nice to have you with us today. I am honored and delighted to welcome my next guest. We are, I know going to have such a rich conversation and time together. It is Dr. Elsbeth Meuth. I want to welcome you. Hello Elsbeth.
Elsbeth: Thank you so much, Joni.
Joni
It’s such an honor to have you. I would love to share with our listeners a little bit more about you before we dive in.
Elsbeth: Wonderful.
Joni:
Yes. So Elsbeth has assisted thousands of women to create lasting intimacy and fulfillment in their lives and their relationships. She’s featured on Showtime’s documentary series, sexual healing, and the Emmy award winning NBC show Starting Over. She is the bestselling author of Sexual Enlightenment, which has been endorsed by world renowned spiritual pioneer, Dr. Michael Beckwith. And she is the cofounder of Tantra Nova Institute in Chicago. She has coached billionaires innovators and power couples all over the world. She has shared their intimacy secrets at a global young president’s organization conference in the city of love Paris, and got nominated as changemaker at the white house sponsored 2016 United States of Women Summit in Washington. So that is quite an accomplished resume Elsbeth.
And I would love to add because in visiting her site and just connecting more with her, she has, I would say a groundbreaking relationship with her partner and cohort in tantra Nova. So I just want to introduce that as well that she really is walking the walk and not just talking the talk.
So I feel compelled to start there? Can you tell us just a little bit, can you give us a little glimpse of, into your relationship?
Elsbeth
Hmm. I’d love to. It is so at the core of what we are going to talk about today and what I want to share. And really also what I have come here into this world to make a difference with is relationship. And more importantly, conscious relationship. How to create conscious relationship. And how I really stumbled into that was that I was not very conscious in my relationships. Now years ago, over 20 years ago when I was quite despaired about what the results were, which was a lot of suffering. A lot of not feeling fulfilled and my heart broken. And so that was the time when I decided, okay Elsbeth if you don’t intervene, you know how it’s all going to end up, you’re going to leave this planet without ever having experienced lasting intimacy and love.
I had experienced love and intimacy, but I was not able to sustain it. So that was the time when I delved deeply into meditation and then into the practice of tantra as a discipline, not just reading books about it, or, you know, from afar. And it was so life changing that I left management consulting and started to dedicate myself to bringing awareness and consciousness around our intimate self, our relational, our sexual, spiritual self. You know, pretty much six months beyond my opening and shifting and healing within my beloved came into my life. And that is the man who I’ve been with for the last 20 years. And we have created Tantra Nova together and really have been using the relationship as the space for our individual evolution and what it means to evolve in relationship. And so a lot of what we teach and when we work with couples and singles really is fueled by this, you know, relationship evolution. And as you said beautifully earlier, you know, like really walking the talk and going until, you know, we leave this planet. So this is not ever a completed process. However, it is becoming a more subtle uncovering and seeing, you know, so it’s actually quite exciting and really an adventure.
Joni
So I’m struck by the fact that you did this inner work to consciously shift, how you show up or are present to relationship and that was what, to me, it seems like opened the door for your beloved to come in.
Elsbeth
Wow, you are so right. You’re like, so on what is essential? Cause you know, I had a pattern before I did my deep work, healing work. I had a pattern of attracting unavailable men. They were either already married or in a relationship or married to the work. So basically not available. And I always thought it was outside. If they only changed, I would be happy. Then through my inner work I became aware of my unavailability that I was not aware of. And that was really based in, what I discovered a distrust towards man. And you know, I was very charming. Twenty, 25 years ago you would not have called me a distrusting bitch, you know, far from it. So I couldn’t pinpoint it. But in the healing work, that is what showed up, of course. And was also related to earlier experiences as a teenager. And so by healing and clearing those, meeting Freddy, my beloved, I only could see him because I had cleared that because he was available, I would not have noticed him because he didn’t fit the pattern that I used to be in.
Joni
Mmm, Yes, yes, yes. And I just feel like that is such an important component to underline because I believe that’s true whether it’s in relationship or even other facets of life when there’s something were yearning for or desire. If we’re not a match to it, it will, we won’t notice it. It will just go by. So sometimes we need to do that inner shift work or that clearing to really be able to show up for what it is that we’re, we’re yearning for.
Elsbeth: Exactly. It’s really an inside job.
Joni: Yes it is.
Elsbeth
There’s something I want to add to the relationship part, which is really when we started to create Tantra Nova, I wanted to create a school that offers a curriculum that teaches distinctions and practices for creating conscious relationship, because that is what I didn’t have. That is actually what none of us has. When we look at that, we may prepare ourselves for our career for years, with education, training, apprenticeship, mentorship. In terms of relationship, we just jump in and then we wonder why they break down or why we are not satisfied or happy. You know, it’s like more by trial and error. Although there are principles and practices we actually can learn and then follow. And I got very curious about that and studied that, examined what are they, and then of course testing them in my own relationship.
And of course also learning from other people who have gone before. So that is what we then cultivated. And that is what we are teaching now. And so there is guidance, there is something we can follow and of course we need to practice. Otherwise we don’t embody it. Otherwise it’s not available when the going gets tough and we are at odds with our beloved or our partner. And of course these principles do not trust apply to beloved relationships. They also apply to relationship period with our children, coworkers, boss, or being the boss, whatever it may.
Joni
Yes, you use the term human relationship mastery. And that is such a powerful term. Just that idea, as you said of mastery and coming into cultivating that in relationship. And that’s the thing I appreciate about you and what you bring is you’re shining a light on something that I have not heard anyone else speak to in the same way. So can you tell us about what goes into human relationship mastery?
Elsbeth
Yeah. So when we look at the state of the world, there is very little consciousness around our relational dimension and it plays out in marriages and intimate relationships and the way we are with children. And then also organizationally, on the corporate level. And I’ve worked at the corporate level for many years as a consultant. And then of course the world relationships and unless we come into a balance of the yin and yang or feminine and masculine within ourselves, and then within relationship, there’s actually no reconciliation possible. So to speak a little bit more about this in a moment. I became very curious about, you know, what does it take again, back to the principles and practices to bring forth a new way of relating that is fulfilling for each person involved or for each country involved.
Now, I want to be very clear that I am working, where I make the impact. And Freddy, along with me is in that close, intimate relationship, so one couple at a time or one individual at a time, although we work in workshops, but you know, that is where the alteration happens. And often people say after they come to a workshop or to private programs with us, they say your work has not only impacted my relationship with my partner, but also I show up differently at work now. I lead people differently because my listening has changed. And for me being in my yin and yang self, as a balance has opened up to bring more compassion, to bring more decisiveness, to having opened up my view. So it has the ripple effect. Although the entry point is really in that one on one intimate partnership that we work in.
Joni
Well, it’s interesting because there was a point in my life early on, where I was interested in global change and I did a short stint in political work and then was very quickly disillusioned. And this is like over 30 years ago and I came to the conclusion that the true agent of change was going to happen person by person, doing that more micro work. And I think both are needed and true, but I am with you on that, the value of, both the work within ourselves, but also within the couple, which is such a powerful crucible for working this stuff through.
Elsbeth
Yes. Very powerful. Because when we look at our families, it’s the couplehood, the parenting that is informed by a couplehood, either consciously or mostly unconsciously, but that what we model as parents, that is what then shows up in children. And that is also what then gets passed on over generation and generation. And that is where I, and Freddie, we are very committed to actually producing a generational shift in the sexual, emotional and spiritual realm. Because when we look at the way we were raised, brought up around our sexual intimate self, there’s a lot of vilification, a lot of suppression or obsession, but it’s in the realm of the unconscious. And to bring it into consciousness, just like we become more conscious now in other dimensions, you know, around racism, health, health care, uh, through the opportunity and challenge of covid and race relations and that it all plays actually into what I’m sharing here.
Although my focus is not healthcare or healing racism, although I live in an interracial relationship. It’s again, bringing light to what has been obscured that affects our wellbeing, our happiness, so tremendously. And then also relational and couple health and wellbeing. And so for me, the, a couplehood is the nucleus because it affects families, and children and then the children replicate what they have learned again through osmosis or by modeling. And so I’m just very delighted and grateful that I’m here at this time, this era, that I get to be part of producing a shift in relationship in our sexual consciousness. And in terms of love what it means to love both myself and another. And from there then be the love in the world and be at the forefront.
Joni
Yes, yes, yes. And I would love to hear you just speak about this concept of sexual consciousness, our sexuality. And I know you’ve taught and work a lot with sexual healing. So, so that whole umbrella, I would love for you to just dive in to whatever, wherever you want to start.
Elsbeth
Thank You. So, Joni, I look at our evolution of particularly the Western world over the last 50 years with the opportunity of therapy. That was really started in the seventies to become more something you could go to. Like in the fifties, if you went to therapy, you were considered sick or strange. Now you go to a therapy session once a week, just like a tuneup.
Joni: Mmm hmm
Elsbeth
So along with that, what has allowed this for us is that we have opened up more to our emotional self and like feeling your emotions is okay, it’s not too, they are not to be suppressed. So that has been an opening. And then through yoga and meditation coming more to the West, we also have connected more with our spiritual self or we could call it mindfulness. So with that dimension of ourselves. Where I locate these are the third eye, the spiritual, the awareness and the emotional, I locate more in the heart center and the chest. However, what we have not opened up to and really looked at is our sexual self.
Joni: Yes.
Elsbeth
However, our sexual self, our sexual energy, which is life force energy that has brought us into this life is the driving force. It’s creative, it’s pleasurable. these are the ingredients that it’s coming with. And if we suppress that, then we suppress our life force. So by becoming more aware of what we may hold around our sexual self in terms of fear, guilt, obsession, embarrassment, shame when we clear that pure creativity becomes available, because that is the source of that energy and of course was pleasure. When I say pleasure, I don’t mean just in the bedroom with myself or with a beloved. And of course that opens up so much more as well. However, then pleasure arising in my everyday life in the way, how I look into the world in the way, how I experience myself, because that is the energy that is then available and that imbues me. So that is what I consider becoming aware of that life, giving energy that is ever present from the moment we get conceived to the moment we leave this planet, and then not only being aware of it, however, I then can also channel it.
I can use this energy for pleasure, pure pleasure in my physical body, which is so, I mean, you know, the goddess appears. And it’s divine, it’s wonderful. We are made for experienced pleasure. Otherwise we wouldn’t have so many nerve endings in our body around the skin, you know, so we are designed for that. And there is another level, I can then cultivate myself to use that energy towards, which is channeling this creative, wonderful, beautiful pleasure energy into of course making babies, which we have done for millennia.
Joni: Yes.
Elsbeth
And which is very creative, which is the most creative act in the world. And then I also can channel that beautiful creative energy into my endeavors, into my projects for me into that, what I’m here for to contribute to the world and make an impact. So I channel it from my sexual center, through my heart center, all the way up into my consciousness center, the third eye and imbue and bless, what I’m about. This becomes a very powerful energy that I put to use. I often liken it to how we harnessed electric energy 200 years ago.
Joni: Yes.
Elsbeth
The lightning before we had gas, lamps and candles, and we harnessed that energy and now we can funnel it into power, our computer, our bulbs in the house and all kinds of stuff. We can harness our life force, sexual pleasure, energy into what we are about in this world.
Joni
Wow. Well, I think about the, I would say the chronic nature of whether it’s, uh, exhaustion, burnout, uh, feeling, just feeling overwhelmed that from my perspective is so common among Western women and how that can be healed or addressed through having greater openness or connection to this source of vitality and that potent life energy that you’re describing.
Elsbeth
Yes, I’m so glad you bring this up around women because when we look at that feminine pleasure, central energy women have been vilified. Or let’s call it the feminine energy has been vilified for millennia. To this day, women, in some parts of the world can be stoned for having a child out of wedlock. And then of course in our own culture, the vilification of how we can manage reproduction and even the choosing of bringing life into this world or not,
Joni: Right, yes.
Elsbeth
All of that is quite affected by that draconian patriarchal view. And so it’s really up to us women to not only reconnect with that life giving, feminine energy, and in the process, of course, clear our own shame and guilt and fear that is often associated with it.
And even in my own life while I have been awake sexually definitely from my teenage years on to the chagrin of my parents. However, you know, I’m 71 years old now and even in recent years, I have taken on another jump into my fuller sensuous, sexual expression. Both in myself and in my relationship with my beloved. The word that has been here for me over the last couple of years has been with abandon.
Joni: Oh I love that.
Elsbeth
There are no restrictions where I am in my flow of the feminine. That is so delicious. And unlike the masculine energy that is linear, directional, the feminine energy is circular, flowing, capricious, unpredictable. And when we are in the throws of that it’s heaven.
Joni: Mmm.
Elsbeth
But to allow myself that. And to clear further even slivers of shame or holding back. And so I’m so delighted to work with women, supporting them in coming to their intimate, feminine selves in the fullest is such a privilege.
Joni
Yes. And I’m wondering if you can’t share just what some of the most common challenges that you hear or are, are there themes? I know you mentioned some of the emotions that we end up clearing, but in your work, are there themes that you see for the women you support?
Elsbeth
Yeah. So I want to be clear that, you know, shame, fear, guilt, embarrassment, all of that suppression and then often turns into obsession is just as much as there for men.
Joni: Yes.
Elsbeth
However, the masculine sexual energy has been lauded for millennia. We can see that it’s like in harems being the Playboy. And that all fits within the patriarchal system or the hierarchical system. And women have been subordinate for millennia. And along with that also that sexual wonderful, feminine energy that is so alive and perhaps also was part of that patriarchal system that this energy needed to be controlled because when feminine energy dances it is uncontrollable.
Joni: Yes, yes.
Elsbeth
And that can be frightful. So whatever, however, it may have come into being to rediscover that wonderful energy what is called for is that we clear our sexual wounding. That of course is so correlated to our love wounding. Many women that come to us struggle with sexual abuse – explicit abuse, physical, sexual abuse, or emotional abuse. I did not get sexually abused by my dad physically, but there was emotional abuse. When I was 18 years old and had intercourse for the first time my father found out about it and then he called me a whore. That is what I call emotional sexual abuse. I was this young woman who was coming into womanhood was then really dismissed and humiliated.
Joni: Rejected. Yes, partly rejected. Yes.
Elsbeth
And so that is one thing. So both the physical sexual abuse, but also what was in the ether around that, making wrong, that budding womanhood in however that may have shown up and perhaps how my father may have felt threatened. He never would have admitted that, but from where I’m sitting now, I think perhaps I was a trigger for him in many ways. And so that is one big, big dimension for healing. And then also what I find is allowing ourselves to come into ourselves, including taking responsibility for where I have lived in a subordinated life, which I don’t like to admit, because I consider myself such an emancipated woman.
Joni: Yes.
Elsbeth
That in the fabric of me how that still may live there and where I then make men responsible for my well being, for my happiness. So being externally referenced and male referenced, because that has been around again for millennia. To step out of that into consciousness about myself, because now I have a choice. I can either be male referenced or I can be internally sourced. And so that’s a big, big step – has been for me. And also what I share with women so that they can empower themselves to step into their life force, into their love self as an origin of creation versus being externally referenced.
Joni
Yes. Or seeing the source of power or wellbeing as outside. This is what I hear you saying.
Elsbeth: Exactly.
Joni
Right. So whether it’s the old paradigm of the hero or the rescuing, you know, rescuing the damsel in distress, that, that those are old patterns that are, I think, as you said, so interwoven into the fabric of our lives, our culture, our family legacies that all of us are doing to some extent having to weed that out.
Elsbeth
Yeah. And, you know, Joni, the sexual realm is so because for us women, most women, not necessarily every woman, but most women, when they want to connect with another, they start feeling it in their heart center. Most men, when they want to connect, they start feeling it in their sexual center. And also for men, for many men the sexual experience doesn’t mean that they are connected with our heart. But it is actually one big evolutionary step for the new man as Freddie calls now, the possibility for the evolution of the man that the new man connects his wonderful testosterone, powerful sexual energy channeling that energy up into his heart. Because when a man becomes connected between his sex and his heart, he not only matures as a man, however, he’s also more integrated with himself. And can truly connect with another. It doesn’t matter if it’s a man or a woman he is in love with. Because in any relationship, no matter if we are heterosexually oriented or bisexual oriented or same sex relationships or transgender there’s always that balance of feminine and masculine or yin and yang. Because if that is not present, there is no polarity. And then there is no magnetism. So, what I’m saying, doesn’t just apply to man- woman relationship it applies to any relationship even outside of the intimate realm.
Joni: Yes. Yes.
Elsbeth
So for men to connect their sex with a heart, because then he can listen from his heart to the partner. And when the partner’s heart opens her or sexual center opens. So it’s just the opposite way. And for us women, we are so more integrated in that love hard self and our sexual self for most women. It’s usually once they have sex, it’s connected with certain feelings. So this is why it’s wise for a woman to be very deliberate and discerning if, and when she may open herself up sexually because the whole nervous system is so integrated that it may not just feel great physically, but like the heart opens that is not necessarily for a man like that. So anyway for women, it’s really coming into the balance of our love self with our sexual self guided from the heart into the sex, or in Sanskrit, the word for the sexual center of the woman is called Yoni. Y O N I, yoni means sacred space. I mean, imagine if you and I, and who is listening, if we had been introduced to our sexual self, our sexual center as a sacred space, I am sure the trajectory of my relationship with my sexual self would have been very different.
Joni: Absolutely.
Elsbeth
Instead of stay away from that, don’t go there. If you were to go there, you are no longer marriage material or you are impure. You know, it’s like something negative.
Joni
Yes. Yes. Well, and it’s, it’s really the, kind of the complete and utter reversal. Just the vilification, as you said, there’s been so much vilification of feminine sexuality and to reclaim that sacred space. And I would say for each woman to, to get to reclaim her sexual energy first and foremost for herself, and then moving into that partnership, which I would love to hear you speak about that kind of that coming together in partnership. And I know you refer to something called the infinity flow and is that connected to that?
Elsbeth
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. So infinity flow has to do with that we are connected heart to heart. So when we look at a beloved relationship, we are partners in that relationship. This is partly why coaching my partner is not a good idea because coaching implies a certain authority, not authoritarian, a certain authority. And coaching my partner is like, I put myself in his or vice versa we put ourselves in a certain role that doesn’t describe or doesn’t express the relationship. Because in partnership, we really move in a way that there may be some moments where I may be more leading in a certain domain and Freddie may be following. And at another moment, Freddie may be leading and I’m following. So there’s never one leader throughout the relationship. Unlike our traditional model of relationship that is hierarchical, which is part of the patriarchal model or system. And if we had matriarchy, it would be the same. It wouldn’t be any different. They are both hierarchical relational models. So what I’m proposing is a new model, which we call the horizontal model. So from the vertical where one is up and one is down and traditionally, historically men have been up and women have been down, we can see this in how history is represented. We can see this in world religions. They are always males at the top. To this day, there are religions where women still cannot become leaders in terms of priesthood or, you know …
Joni: I know it was, I was raised Catholic. So yes, I know that all too well.
Elsbeth
Yes. I’m just bringing it up as something for us to see, not to make wrong. Because in making wrong I just put myself on top and I continue playing the same model.
Joni: Thank you for that. Yes, thank you for pointing that out. That is useful.
Elsbeth
The only way of shifting is that we become aware and conscious of what has been without resistance and making it wrong and blaming then really rise for me as a woman, to this consciousness where I can shift into the horizontal relationship. And that is where I listen from the heart. Where I don’t judge, where I notice what may be missing without making wrong. And then I start listening from the heart, what may be going on over there, as well as listening to my own heart and listen to what’s going on for me. So I can share that in and speak up without dominating, or you really have to listen to me now. No, I make a request and invite. And of course, then if someone is invited, usually they are much more willing to listen.
Joni
Yes. And I, I love again, the invitation to move out of the space of judgment into step into what I might call your inner authority, which is the place where we can speak and meet on an equal, as you said, that horizontal plane, as opposed to one up one down. So that’s a beautiful distinction.
Elsbeth
Yeah Joni, this is really the challenge of our lifetime.
Joni: yes.
Elsbeth
This era that we are living in. Because if I cannot practice this, how can I expect that world leaders are going to practice it?
Joni
Excellent point. Yes. Again, going back to the, it begins with us, it begins in the micro and then it can expand out and impact the macro.
Elsbeth
Yes. And If I may add one more thing.
Joni: Of course.
Elsbeth: Can I?
Joni: Yes, yes, of course.
Elsbeth
Because it’s such a deep learning has been a deep learning for me because I felt so subjected to, and at the effect of patriarchy. My dad, how authoritarian he was. I’m German as probably most can tell from my accent. And so we don’t call the home country motherland, we call it, fatherland. Very patriarchal in structure. And not that other countries are not and people’s cultures. But anyways, I was so externally referenced I really needed to face myself and how I allowed it without my knowing.
Joni: Yes, yes.
Elsbeth
Growing into my own womanhood as you beautifully called it, the authority within. But then also taking responsibility for my subordination that I lived unconsciously. For my blaming men for not being the way I thought they should be, but not taking responsibility for how I used my sexual self. How I played into that dynamic. So to get love, I used my sexual self and it was very easy, to get attention and attraction and all of that. That’s an easy way to connect with a man.
Joni
Right. Particularly at those younger stages of development. I mean, it works all along, but when you are in the, kind of the blossom of your youth and in beauty it’s, it’s like magic.
Elsbeth
Exactly, and then making my suffering when I didn’t get the fullest or they didn’t show up for me as I thought they should. Then I dropped into deep suffering. And really it was in my eyes all up to them to change it. Total victim.
Joni
Right. Well, it is the, the misconception that they, that they hold the power. I think that that’s certainly what we/ I had been taught and culturally what is expressed. And so we internalize that and don’t see the ways that we have our own choice, power, facility.
Elsbeth
And I want to acknowledge that of course, that is evidence for that in like, for example, women couldn’t vote until the 1920’s. Women couldn’t have their own credit card – married women…
Joni: Oh, I know. Yes, yes, yes.
Elsbeth
Even in the 50’s and 60’s, they needed the signature of the husband. And the residue lives within us on the cellular levels. So now the work is to clear that and I invite every woman who is listening. It is your time. And there are guides and mentors and coaches, and this conversation here all there for you to fully come into yourself.
Joni
Absolutely. And you have a very lovely and generous free gift to share with our listeners that that is a step in that direction. Would you like to share about that?
Elsbeth
I’d love to, yeah. It is a video download. It’s called, Awaken to your Feminine Essence. And there are a couple of practices that will assist you as the listener in tapping into your own feminine self, become quiet and drop into the still place that is within and in that still place intimacy arises. And that is where we can start listening to ourselves where we may hear ourselves on levels that we don’t usually do during our busy life and daily preoccupation with whatever may be going on.
Joni
Yes, that sounds very rich, and useful. Sounds like something you could probably watch or listen to over and over and get something out of it.
Elsbeth: Yes. Yes.
Joni: So I can’t believe it, but we need to bring this to a close. The time has flown by.
Elsbeth
Yeah. I feel we just started, this is so rich and wonderful being with you, Joni, I feel like we are two Eagles soaring.
Joni
Yes, yes. And I certainly love to both take in the big picture, but also go deep. So I absolutely agree. We could, we could probably talk all day about this. So I want to just let our listeners know that to explore your work, to explore more of your offerings, they can go to your website, which is in the show notes, but it’s tantranova.com.
Elsbeth
Great. Yes. Tantra Nove ike supernova.
Joni: Yes. And is that where that came from? The nova part?
Elsbeth
Actually, that was my nephew at 12 years old, when we were sitting around the kitchen table and looking for a name for our Institute. We had talked about nouvelle tantra, like new tantra, all of that. And he said, Oh, what about Tantra Nova like supernova? And it was born.
Joni: Yes. I love that. And I also love that it’s coming from a coming of age male. I think that’s very powerful. It is like that, that boost, that boost of energy.
Elsbeth: Yes.
Hmm. So I want to thank you Elsbeth for taking the time to be with us and to share. So generously your wisdom.
Elsbeth
Thank you so much, Joni for inviting me and for being such a phenomenal interviewer.
Joni: Hmm. Thank you.
Elsbeth: I am touched.
Joni Aww, thank you. I’m taking that in. I really appreciate that. It’s my joy. It’s my great joy.
Elsbeth: I can feel it.
Joni
Aww, thank you. And I want to thank you dear listener for being with us today and want to remind you as always to trust what your heart knows.